1Yes, he would.

2And what of the unjust—does he claim to have more than the just man and to do more than is just?

3Of course, he said, for he claims to have more than all men.

4And the unjust man will strive and struggle to obtain more than the unjust man or action, in order that he may have more than all?

5True.

6We may put the matter thus, I said—the just does not desire more than his like but more than his unlike, whereas the unjust desires more than both his like and his unlike?

7Nothing, he said, can be better than that statement.

8And the unjust is good and wise, and the just is neither?

9Good again, he said.

10And is not the unjust like the wise and good and the just unlike them?

11Of course, he said, he who is of a certain nature, is like those who are of a certain nature; he who is not, not.

12Each of them, I said, is such as his like is?

13Certainly, he replied.

14Very good, Thrasymachus, I said; and now to take the case of the arts: you would admit that one man is a musician and another not a musician?

15Yes.

16And which is wise and which is foolish?

17Clearly the musician is wise, and he who is not a musician is foolish.

18And he is good in as far as he is wise, and bad in as far as he is foolish?

19Yes.

20And you would say the same sort of thing of the physician?

21Yes.

22And do you think, my excellent friend, that a musician when he adjusts the lyre would desire or claim to exceed or go beyond a musician in the tightening and loosening the strings?

23I do not think that he would.

24But he would claim to exceed the non-musician?

25Of course.